As the speed of enterprise change accelerates, CEOs are increasingly focusing on continuous transformation to remain relevant, competitive and profitable. But large-scale transformations are hard to sustain. Regardless of how compelling the business imperative and exponential the technical drivers, successful outcomes depend on people. How do we help our teams identify and overcome the barriers to change? How do we identify and empower the change makers in our teams? In this inaugural episode of Season 4 of The Progress Report, our guests explore how to navigate the complexities of enterprise transformation and lead an organization towards a purpose-driven future. Tune in as experts discuss what it takes to be a “change maker,” including the art of balancing quick wins with long term goals, fostering a culture of adaptability, and the critical role of communication in driving successful change.
As the speed of enterprise change accelerates, CEOs are increasingly focusing on continuous transformation to remain relevant, competitive and profitable. But large-scale transformations are hard to sustain. Regardless of how compelling the business imperative and exponential the technical drivers, successful outcomes depend on people. How do we help our teams identify and overcome the barriers to change? How do we identify and empower the change makers in our teams?
In this inaugural episode of Season 4 of The Progress Report, our guests explore how to navigate the complexities of enterprise transformation and lead an organization towards a purpose-driven future. Tune in as experts discuss what it takes to be a “change maker,” including the art of balancing quick wins with long term goals, fostering a culture of adaptability, and the critical role of communication in driving successful change.
Featured Experts
Tom Rourke 00:00
Hello, and welcome to the latest episode of The Progress Report. I'm Tom Rourke, Global Leader of Kyndryl Vital, and your host for this afternoon's conversation. We're all aware that the pace of change is accelerating all of the time. In fact, the data would suggest that the pace has tripled over the last four years. But change isn't always successful, and change is very difficult. The majority of change programs are often deemed to have failed to achieve their original goals and outcomes. So what does it take to drive fundamental transformation and change within an organization? How do we motivate people? How do we sustain people? And how do we lead people to make the kind of changes that we need our organizations to make in our fast-paced business world? I'm delighted to be joined by two such leaders today. My colleague Ismail Amla, Senior Vice President for Kyndryl Consult, and Victoria Pelletier, Founder and CEO of Unstoppable You, who has recently joined us at Kyndryl Consult. So, I'm going to jump right in, Victoria, with you. You've got quite a considerable experience around transformation and change, and I suppose each one of them presents different challenges, but as you approach a new challenge for a transformation, what are the kind of questions that are foremost in your mind?
Victoria Pelletier 01:08
Well, first of all, thank you for having me. It's an absolute pleasure to be speaking with you here. And there's no, I'm going to say, Tom, no silver bullet. And so when I'm talking to clients or other leaders, I can't say there's one thing specifically. There's a series of questions that I sort of go through with them. First and foremost is, what's the ultimate vision? What's the problem you're trying to solve for here? And being really clear on how success is measured and what the end goal is. And then there's other things that then build from there. So looking at current state of the organization, their readiness to make change, who are key stakeholders, who are influencers, what are potential barriers to change? And then start talking more around process, specifically, after we work through some of those questions.
Tom Rourke 01:54
And Ismail, if I could ask you maybe the same question?
Ismail Amla 01:57
Yeah. So I mean, I think change isn't bought into, and I sort of tend to look at it as a negotiation, in that when you're planning a negotiation, you're always trying to understand what's the best alternative to a negotiated agreement. In my assessment of whether a change is ready to go, I'm trying to understand what's the best alternative to this change, and quite often they have loads of alternatives, which is why change doesn't happen. And I think it's trying to understand what the alternatives are, and making those choices more difficult or fewer, so that we've got fewer paths to go down. And I think, structurally, getting that right, for me, has proven to be the most important things.
Tom Rourke 02:42
I'm curious from both of you, the extent to which the goal that somebody has framed out at the beginning of the transformation is the rationale for the transformation. Does that hold? Maybe, Victoria, if I could start with you and come back to Ismail.
Victoria Pelletier 02:54
I find that people are not often very clear on the goal. And you heard me say earlier getting clear around how success will be measured. And oftentimes this is being driven by, you know, a strategic agenda, which many times is not actually strategy. There's some plan that they're putting in place to execute on certain pieces. And again, there's not alignment. So for me, it's digging incredibly deep. Particularly in consulting, there's many who will tell clients what they want to hear, and in this case, is telling them what they need to hear, and asking the questions and probing consistently to ensure that there's very clear outcomes that are expected to be delivered. And then alignment for that. How do we ensure that they're actually ready? Not just saying they are, but they're committed. They're on the bus to making change.
Ismail Amla 03:44
The alignment at the leadership level to what the change is and what it will mean to go through the change, meaning the personal cost to people in the organization, the courage needed, the talent needed, the change everybody is going to have to face up to. I think that alignment is probably, for me, the big thing that I think determines whether you have to start or not. If you're thinking about an existing culture and an existing organization. What is really interesting, of course, is that there is a way that that culture deals with adversity and deals with change that as a newcomer, you probably don't know or understand. And depending on who's aligning on the change, you may never understand, because that's part of the resistance. If you're bringing change to an organization, there's this push-pull of trying to align and making sure that you've got stakeholders coming with you, but not to the point where those stakeholders are going to compromise the direction, the pace, the approach, so much that you're going to lose the value of what the change is. And I think the art of coming into an existing organization is that balance. Enough so you get engagement and stakeholder buy-in and support, not too much that you dilute what you're trying to do to.
Tom Rourke 05:17
To round up this issue about this idea of pace, I think there's a balance sometimes where you do need to set quite a pace to get people moving and exactly to avoid this issue of people onboarding and then also slowing the pace. But on the other hand, not overwhelming an organization which typically is already trying to do something on a day-to-day basis. Transformations are never a, "Stop, and let's transform and then start again." They're typically organizations in motion. So what are your thoughts, maybe around getting the pace right?
Victoria Pelletier 05:46
I do think pace is critically important. And what I see is most organizations ask for the people who are running parts of the business, who have day jobs, if you will, who are asked to pick up and lead a significant part of the transformation. And although that is very important to have them involved, the institutional knowledge that's required to help support through the transformation, the reality is you actually need to assess the capacity and the readiness for those that are going to be involved in the transformation, in the project, in the change, to ensure that it can be delivered on time. But that means also setting a clear roadmap with phases for them, gaining additional support where necessary and externally to help come and supplement that during this this time. And also, I think there's something that's really important through this, which is just to identify and celebrate quick wins. That helps, although it's a hard and fast pace we run at through these, to get people bought in and celebrating the wins along the way.
Ismail Amla 06:49
There's two things I guess I would add to that. One is, as the change maker, you're setting the pace, and you got to get your mind around that. There's nobody's going to come in and say, "This is how fast you want to go, you are setting the pace." As a result of that, there's often going to be times you're on your own. Nobody agrees with the pace that you set in. You've got to bring a whole host of growth mindsets and pace setting with a whole host of respect and humility, because people are doing day jobs that are really valuable, that are keeping the firm going. There's this balance of, "How do you do that?" How do you make sure that the person driving the plane can keep on driving the plane while you're telling them to change the engine? This experience comes into this quite a bit, and also as a change maker, being very agile and prepared to say, "Okay, we're not going fast enough. Are we going too fast? And you know, I'm prepared to take the risk. I'm prepared to be held accountable for that."
Tom Rourke 07:47
The question I'm interested in is how do you go about helping identify and recruit, if you will, volunteers to the change?
Victoria Pelletier 07:56
Incumbent upon the leaders or the change makers, I think a big part of our role in that is to connect the change to purpose. Not just the purpose of the organization at its most macro level, but to why we're making the change, and bring that down to the individual, so they feel a strong sense of passion towards being a part, but other things come along with that. I think there's a big part of it that is about creating the right kind of environment. We haven't talked enough around communication and how critical that is through times of change, making sure that they feel that it's two way. And from all levels of the organization, we are all leaders, regardless of our position in our hierarchy, or how many direct reports we have reporting to us. So, I think by making that kind of inclusive culture, where they feel that safety, where they're connected to purpose. And sometimes it's also creating a bit of a burning platform for why it is we need to make this change that gets them much more bought in, and you get a heck of a lot more volunteers versus those that are "voluntold".
Ismail Amla 09:01
You know, I think to take people with you, you need IQ and EQ in total measure to be able to take people, because when the rationale doesn't make sense and you still want the change, the purpose will help you. So purpose, I think, is truly critical. And then culture, especially in organizations where there is an existence or many existent, dominant cultures. How do you create a culture for change? And for me, it's about having enough critical mass. A critical mass of folks who you brought in or already exists, who have a growth mindset, who have a passion for the future that we've painted, and who are not scared to fail.
Victoria Pelletier 09:46
Going back to celebrating wins. So I think we need to be consistent around that, but we also need to take great accountability when we fail and talk about the lessons that we've learned from that. Change is uncomfortable. I think the magic happens, quite frankly, in our discomfort zones. That's where growth and all of our opportunity comes. So again, creating a culture that's going to be adaptable to that, that's a big part of my job in the organization, and helping them be resilient through that. So that's where we see failure as learning, where curiosity is valued, and then adaptability just becomes almost second nature. What are some of the strategies and tactics that you've used in organizations to help the broader communities build resilience and sustain commitment to the change over time?
Ismail Amla 10:35
I think first thing I would say, actually, as we talk about the whole idea around not be afraid to fail, is the importance of the leadership to set and role model what that looks and feels like. The other thing that I think is really important is actually quite often the change team that you start off with is not the change team that you can end up with. So I think you need to build in the fact that you change folks themselves, your advocates themselves, who've come in fresh and excited and full of energy and wanting to change the world 12 months in, will still be all of those things, but we'll be operating at 80% because of what you're going through.
Tom Rourke 11:14
That's an interesting segue to one of the questions I had, which was around how you recruit people to a place that is actually in a state of change that you can't really describe what the place is going to be like in two years time, because you haven't built it yet. So, what is it that attracts people to that kind of environment?
Victoria Pelletier 11:30
Well, I think there are different types of people on this spectrum, and some who thrive in that kind of ambiguity and sometimes chaos, and then there's those that just love the status quo. But I look to find people to be the change makers and to be a part of this transformation that thrive in that zone of ambiguity and discomfort. But in doing so, I try to build a compelling vision for them of the future, but also be transparent in the elements that I don't know, and saying, "I don't want know what I don't know, but here's what I can tell you right now, and here's how I'd like you to be a part of this solution." And make them feel incredibly valued in the part that they're going to play in that transformation. And also, I would say a big part of the reason I joined the organization is also because of people. I believe in the vision and I trust the leaders, and I am one of those who thrives in chaos and ambiguity, and so I'm all in on what that looks like for me personally, let alone our clients.
Tom Rourke 12:34
I'm actually quite interested in the idea of, though, how you prepare the people who are ultimately going to run stuff for that as we're going through the change, because it is clear there are different personalities. And I suspect that it can be during the change phase, or the intense change phase, the "run" people can be super, super uncomfortable, but you need them to be confident that, well, actually, when we get into the run phase, you people are going to be the rock stars because the rest of the chaos and people are going to have moved to do something else. So I'm just interested in that idea of how you prepare the "run" for the "run" when you're not actually quite there.
Ismail Amla 13:10
The key principle for me is that change is a constant. So actually, part of the change job is to turn as many people who are "run" people and get them more comfortable with the change. This is part of the role of what you need to do. And I think what I find with personal experience, and we've seen it, Tom, together on projects and change programs, it's a learnable thing. And what you find is, "run" folks say, "Well, actually, I quite like a little bit of that." And they get involved in the change, and then, they have enough of a change and run by the time we get to the "run" that they're perfectly provisioned to take on the role going forward.
Victoria Pelletier 13:51
There's a big part for the "change" leaders to the "run" leaders. And my career started running large operations, but I am driven to achieve metrics. So from a change perspective, it's about being clear on how on each phase of the transformation, we're going to look at those new metrics and those goal posts. And that actually gets, I find, generally gets them much more excited.
Tom Rourke 14:13
I want to talk a little bit about the role of data, actually, in managing change. Maybe you could talk a little bit more on that.
Victoria Pelletier 14:19
First of all, I think change is a bit art and a bit science. And so this is where being data-driven to make some of our decisions and to connect a purpose and the "why" we are doing this change. And then as we are progressing and moving forward, showing our progress with data points. Again, that gets further and gets people who might still not be completely on the bus, fully in their seat and ready for the journey.
Ismail Amla 14:45
And on the data, I think it is so important that you can't launch a project without having good data to justify why the change. And it becomes positively reinforcing, I think, if you're looking at the right data. And the consequences of performance is not negative. Again, it's seen as a learning point. If we are not doing well in this place around billability, what's going on here? What do we need to understand? What support do you need? I think if we position it and frame it like that, I think the data becomes critical and hugely important going forward. The balanced nature of the metrics becomes important because it needs to tie in, as Victoria said, to purpose. Not just what you as the leader think is the important challenge of the quarter. That's more around building trust that actually you're going to work to the way that you said you were going to work. Because your purpose may not be the same as everybody else's purpose on that team, but what you've clearly agreed on is what you think is important that you need to manage against. And I think the nature of the metrics can't just be financial, can't just be signings, can't just be people. There's gonna be everything that gets you to where you need to get to.
Victoria Pelletier 16:05
This is an important part of establishing our path for change going forward it's around metrics and being multifaceted. And so if we are looking for different outcomes, and very much when we're talking about change, that we are in large part talking about certain behaviors. So we need to look at a very different performance system with metrics. So as we're planning change, we create metrics, data points, behaviors, language, and all the things that we want to see measured that bring and deliver a holistic positive change that delivers the end outcome that we said we were looking for.
Ismail Amla 16:49
Yeah. I mean, the only thing I would add is, at the beginning of a change, it's not so much metrics, because you can't really measure buying. What you can measure, or where you can see, is actions rather than words. One of the skills I think, of the change maker, is not only being able to execute on metrics and balanced scorecards, but actually being able to spot culture and actions and behaviors and leadership intent and so on. Because a false start at the beginning of the change program will really mean you don't end up with a change program.
Tom Rourke 17:22
So, what are your experiences around programs that do begin successfully, but at a certain point in their lifetime, they begin to either lose direction or momentum? And first of all, how do you identify that issue early? And what are the kind of interventions that you can make when that happens?
Victoria Pelletier 17:40
There's a whole bunch of reasons where I see it either lose pace or be unsuccessful. And a lot of this comes back to the original planning for this change. So everything around absolute alignment and clarity around vision. The alignment around purpose, looking at the appropriate phasing and pace of change, which we've talked about. For some of these multi-year change programs, we are going to see some turnover through that. Some much needed because it is exhausting to do it, and sometimes because we'll need to bring in a different kind of skill set, or subject matter expertise, or institutional knowledge to the table as well. But one of the big reasons I've seen them fail as well is a lack of ownership and accountability for that outcome and those that measure it. So I see, you know, we build business cases for new technologies we're bringing in, or a redesigned organizational structure that says we're going to deliver X, Y and productivity or reduction in costs. And some of that gets measured early on as we start to build that, but then don't tie it directly back, going back to incentives as well. So does that become a part of the leaders who are involved in it? So again, I think that should be built in upfront, but I also see that as a big reason for why we aren't as successful on delivering all the outcomes we said that we would.
Ismail Amla 19:00
I'd add four things, actually, on why these programs fail. One is a leadership change, where the project was sponsored by somebody else. Secondly, as a change team, you stop selling. You think it's business as usual. Thirdly, it's the energy of the people driving the change. And fourthly, if you're not getting short-term wins, or you're getting short-term wins but they're not being communicated, then that's another reason why the resistance will increase and projects will stall.
Tom Rourke 19:34
So, if I can ask you both the same question now, is that you both have well established career track records as change makers. You've had your successes and failures along the way and challenges. What is it that has attracted you both to the particular career paths that you've chosen as being those change agents, and what advice would you give to someone looking at their options, really, to consider taking this path?
Victoria Pelletier 20:03
I think there's a little bit DNA, quite frankly, for me. Fight or flight, I'm a fighter. I'm competitive. So I think there's something there. Some has been thrown at me, and it's been like the greatest time of my career. And when I say thrown at me, I've now been a part of 40 merger acquisition or related transactions. All of which come with significant challenge and change and transformation. And for me, I have always been this voracious learner. Incredible amount of curiosity. And I am really uncomfortable sitting in my zone of discomfort. As I said earlier at the beginning of this, I think magic happens in that place. For me that's where growth and opportunity comes. And so I have this quote and picture on my wall with this quote from George Adair that says, "Everything you've ever wanted lives on the other side of fear." And that's why I like change.
Ismail Amla 21:00
All of us want to change the world, all of us in some way. And whenever you're driving change, in my mind, you are actually changing a small part of the world in some way. And in some instances, you're driving huge parts of the world in terms of how people will work, how successful they might be, how they might support their families and put their kids through school, how many holidays they may have. The change that you're doing are impacting the lives of people who work in that environment. And I like that responsibility. I like the fact that you've got an opportunity to change the world for people to something better. You're always thinking about the future, which really appeals to me in terms of how my mind works, and you generally don't know what you're going to do tomorrow. And I love that. It really plays into the fact that if you love what you do, you're never going to do a day’s work in your life. And change for me is that.
Tom Rourke 21:50
So, Ismail, Victoria, thank you both so much for an absolutely incredibly engaging conversation on the topic of change and the challenges it brings, but also the exciting opportunity it brings to make a real difference in the world. So, Victoria, Ismail, thank you so much.
Ismail Amla 22:04
Thank you.
Victoria Pelletier 22:05
Thank you
Tom Rourke 22:06
So, thank you for joining us for today's episode of The Progress Report, for what was a truly energizing and fascinating conversation on the challenges involved in fundamental transformation and change. Change requires vision, purpose, stamina, emotional intelligence, and increasingly, the use of data to help us understand how we're progressing and where we need to course correct. Not being afraid to fail, but never losing sight of the ultimate vision and goal and progress. Thank you for listening to The Progress Report. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please do, like, share and subscribe.