It is estimated that 15-20% of people worldwide are neurodivergent. By leveraging a strengths-based approach to learning – focusing on what an individual can do best – leaders can embrace the power of their talent. Diverse teams boost creativity and innovation, create greater opportunities for professional growth, and make better decisions over time.1 Companies that believe diversity strengthens their culture and create a flexible, agile and supportive work environment have become more successful at recruiting the right talent, particularly in tough-to-fill skills categories. And company output – including the bottom line – has profited from the lower attrition rates and higher productivity of a diverse workforce. Listen in as our experts discuss how to show up authentically as a leader, best practices for harnessing the unique strengths of neurodiverse talent, and why the best teams are the most diverse. 1 Source: “Neurodiversity at work: a biopsychosocial model and the impact on working adults.” NIH, 2020
It is estimated that 15-20% of people worldwide are neurodivergent1. By leveraging a strengths-based approach to learning – focusing on what an individual can do best – leaders can embrace the power of their talent.
Diverse teams boost creativity and innovation, create greater opportunities for professional growth, and make better decisions over time.1
Companies that believe diversity strengthens their culture and create a flexible, agile and supportive work environment have become more successful at recruiting the right talent, particularly in tough-to-fill skills categories. And company output – including the bottom line – has profited from the lower attrition rates and higher productivity of a diverse workforce.
Listen in as our experts discuss how to show up authentically as a leader, best practices for harnessing the unique strengths of neurodiverse talent, and why the best teams are the most diverse.
1 Source: “Neurodiversity at work: a biopsychosocial model and the impact on working adults.” NIH, 2020
Tom Rourke 00:00
Welcome to the latest episode of The Progress Report. I'm Tom Rourke, Global Leader for Kyndryl Vital and your host for today's discussion. I passionately believe that diverse teams achieve better outcomes. They see problems from multiple perspectives, boost creativity, and surface more possibilities for effective solutions. Embracing diversity and inclusion creates space for a far broader range of talented individuals to contribute. Embracing diversity and inclusion is not only good for the individuals concerned, but also makes sound business sense. Companies that believe diversity strengthens their culture and creates a flexible, agile, and supportive environment have become much more successful at attracting and retaining the right talent, particularly in tough to fill categories and in driving higher productivity. Today, we're going to focus on one very important dimension of diversity, which is the estimate 15-20% of people worldwide, who are in neurodivergent. And I have a special request. Listening to podcasts can often be something that we do on the move. Indeed, it's one of the attractions of the medium. Today, however, I'd like to invite you, if you can, to set aside some time to listen in a quiet space with fewer distractions as my two wonderful guests, Sarah Maston, Director of Partner Development and Strategy at Microsoft, and Karima Bryant, Chief Inclusion, Diversity, and Equity Officer here at Kyndryl, discuss the joys, challenges, and leadership responsibilities that come with embracing diverse minds. Sarah, Karima, you're very welcome to The Progress Report. Karima, perhaps I can start with you. First of all, how do you understand the term "neurodiversity"? And what does it mean when it comes to creating a more inclusive and equitable workplace?
Karima Bryant 01:43
Thanks, Tom. So I like to think of inclusion as where we are intentionally recognizing, respecting, valuing and celebrating the differences that make us each unique as humans. Diversity is the representation of multiple identities and perspectives. So if you add "neuro" on top of "diversity", it is the representation of the diverse minds and includes people that are both neurotypical and neurodiverse. And that is where we have neurological differences that need to be accepted and respected as part of that inclusion piece. How do we understand people's differences, allow them and enable them, and give them a safe space to be able to share their differences? Because many of our differences you can't see, right? So that we have a safe space for people to share their differences and then we create an environment that allows them to be successful with all of their differences.
Tom Rourke 02:46
What does it mean, in terms of the kind of changes we need to make in our workplace, when we think about people who are neurodiverse?
Karima Bryant 02:53
So when I think about people who are neurodiverse, some of the changes that come into mind, and I think it's very varied just because of the diversity of the different types of neurotypical neurodiverse. I mean, that's a huge range, right? Autism, attention-deficit/hyperactivity, Tourette syndrome, and many other differences. So just that range in itself talks about the diversity and therefore the need to have different accommodations to accommodate what those differences are. But when I think about the strategies that we employ at Kyndryl are around "three A's". So is there accessibility? And is there an accommodation that needs to be made to make sure that the employee has the conditions to contribute to be successful in the work that they do? And then attitudes. So how do we make sure that there's ability for us all to interact in a confident, successful manner, and be able to be open and ask questions where we have things of need? And so that might translate in the workplace where you're reducing sensory distractions. You're allowing flexible hours. You allow the use of private rooms if you're in the office, so that you have a private space to just kind of focus. And it could even be redesigning workplaces so that it fits the needs of those people.
Tom Rourke 04:11
And Sarah, from a leadership point of view, what role do you think leadership plays in fostering the kind of environment that allows neurodiverse people to thrive?
Sarah Maston 04:20
Full disclosure, I found out that I was on what some people would say the spectrum, you know, Aspergers, there's been so many names, right? Like now we have neurodiversity. So over time, the language has evolved to pretty much just open the doors for people that maybe aren't the same as somebody else or thinks differently about things. One of the things I look at is how it's talked about. So, you know, there's this policy and that policy, and "we're going to be inclusive and diverse". And so, there's that sort of administrative level. It is frightening if you're somebody who is different, and people can't see it necessarily. And if you are older, you have been trying to blend. Making that space so people can come out, if you will. I don't think it's any different than somebody who's perhaps gay, or something else that you have to come out about, because otherwise, I don't know that people would really notice.
Karima Bryant 05:26
That point of covering, right? How often do we cover and we assimilate in environments, because we don't want to be seen as different? And how much of a burden that is for the people who do that? And that goes for people who are neurodiverse, people of different a race, ethnicity, and gender. It's that covering, that need to assimilate - it's exhausting, honestly, because you can't be your authentic self. And I think the journey that we're on around this inclusion, diversity, and equity space is that we continue to work to a place where people can be their authentic selves at work. It's the same thing when I walk out my door, I am the same person at home. And so you remove that burden of trying to assimilate and how much easier it is for me to come to work when I don't have that extra burden.
Tom Rourke 06:20
People make phenomenal contributions, but also you've got to appreciate, if all you appreciate, is actually there's a very heavy extra cost in making that contribution. And recognizing that when some of our colleagues make their contributions, you just have to appreciate that they've had to put a level of energy that maybe the rest of us don't actually have to put into that, because they've had to do a lot and work a lot harder to make that connection with the rest of us.
Sarah Maston 06:46
You don't have to just rip off all the covers. For my example, I have learned, mostly in the pandemic, because it became so difficult to be remote and on a screen, my savantism, if you will, when they tested me was that I am a pattern matching, which is probably why I like graphs, and I'm a nonverbal communications savant. So most people, if they think about anyone on the spectrum, they say, "Oh, they don't understand social cues or subtle nuance." In my case, that's all I see. It's the verbal that I don't quite understand. So why would somebody have physical, if they're lying about something that I can see clear as day, but their voice is saying something else? And so over time, I personally had to learn that people are going to fib. They're going to hide some stuff that's not ready to be revealed yet. And I couldn't just stand up, stamp my foot and say, "That's wrong." Because you have to allow people to be people. And when I go in, in more of a leadership role as more of a grown up in the field now versus when I started, just letting people reveal themselves and not trying to force them to do something they may not naturally be able to do.
Karima Bryant 08:04
So I was thinking about when we talk about how we educate our leaders on the importance of understanding differences and understanding people who are neurodiverse. It goes back to kind of the big picture of unconscious bias, right? Recognizing that we all have biases and our desire is to put people in a box. "If you're neurodiverse, I need to put you in this box with these criteria and this characteristic." But that's the reality. We all don't fit into that box. And I also think it is important and so lovely that we're having this discussion, because for any person who is any different, having representation matters. Having someone they can look at like a Sarah that says, "Oh, Sarah is neurodiverse. She's on the spectrum. Look at all the amazing things she's done and is doing." It helps for people to see themselves. It helps for people to break their unconscious bias box-putting, right? Because you see the success and the capabilities and it breaks your understanding and perceptions.
Sarah Maston 09:07
Like personally, when you think about all the rich, you know, what are they called? ERGS. Employee resource groups, right? We have a lot of those at Microsoft, and they're wonderful. There's lots of stuff that comes out of them depending on what the group is doing and focused on. You'll get people that of course belong to multiple groups, right? I always wonder how like, people will be like, "Oh, diversity and inclusion, you know what?" I'm like, I have a lot of labels, so which one would you like to talk to? You know, gay, woman in tech, spectrum-y, you know, all these different things. You know, I like Star Wars. I'm sure that's an ERG. But the thing is, don't assume. If someone has come out about whatever it is, it doesn't mean they're the type of person that wants to go join a club. Or bucketing them to say, "Oh, well, we have a club for this. For people like you." And it's like, "Oh, so you found out about me today and then you decided that you had to put me in your box of your club?"
Tom Rourke 10:08
I think that's a super important point, Sarah, because I do know from many years ago, I met with a very good friend of mine, a senior leader in our ancestor company, who was comfortable for people to be aware that she was a gay woman in a senior management role. But she was very clear. She said, "Look, but I'm not signing up to be the poster person for a particular club or group right now." You want to create space for somebody, but you don't want to actually go to labels to limit them. But it was then that creates this question about what is the role of leadership? There are many of us and many of our colleagues who, if they reflected, they would recognize it with some level of neurodiversity in themselves. The question is then, what's the role of leaders who themselves may be neurodiverse and have not spoken about it so far? How does that help? Or what's the appropriate response from a leader? And I know, Karima, you must have worked with a lot of leaders where you would know yourself that perhaps they were neurodiverse. What might you have wished them to have done differently?
Karima Bryant 11:05
It goes back to what we were just talking about, it's role modeling. The ability to be open, to be self aware, and to share about yourself. And that's a very vulnerable position to be in, right? When you are sharing about your personal self and bringing your authentic self to work. But I think when our leaders role model what that looks like, and I think studies have been shown that the leaders who do that well and executives who openly share about their disability, whatever it is, if they are neurodiverse or anything, they have a higher rate of employee self-disclosure and self ID, like 34% higher. Because if I see you, as my leader, and you are willing to share and be vulnerable and be that open about yourself, then that may want me to be open and share as well. And it, again, creates that space to know that if you can do it, I am able to do it if I want to based on when I feel comfortable doing that. From my perspective, when you have people who are willing to self-disclose about whether they are neurodiverse, that helps us be informed as an organization and think about program benefits that we need to do more of, and allows us to hear from that population. So for those people who want to be members of the ERG, ours are called Kyndryl Inclusion Networks. But they become an untapped resource, right? We are now trying to leverage our Kyndryl Inclusion Networks to inform us to ask questions and test things about benefits, about wording, and to make sure we're being inclusive and leveraging this untapped pool of people. It's a great opportunity to just help us on this journey.
Tom Rourke 12:49
If I can maybe bring us back, Sarah, to maybe something earlier in the conversation and just recognize when you say, "as a woman in tech", in the context of this conversation as we all work for tech companies. And increasingly, the space we interact with each other in the world we live in, is a tech mediated space, right? And I think you mentioned something from your experience during COVID earlier. My experience of COVID was that I recognized that were certain of my colleagues who actually were better able and seemed more comfortable contributing in this virtual context than had they been in the physical room. And that was an interesting discovery for me and it was something that's kind of helped me watch out for people. But as we move back into this kind of what we're calling this hybrid space, are there things that we can do to be more intentful? Are there lessons that we need to bear in mind as we kind of come back into a new way of working and as we have a moment to redesign the spaces we work in and things that we need to think about as leaders?
Sarah Maston 13:50
You know, I have all these hobbies with my friends. And one of them was kind of on this topic on, "How do you design?" It's almost like a different type of survey. How do we get companies like Kyndryl, Microsoft, whomever, or whoever's listening wherever you work, that you can kind of ask, "Do you like to work with headphones?" You know, it's kind of part of the culture to say you're gonna have all sorts of ways that you work. So how do we templatize that or operationalize that and say, "This is how somebody works." And that's the way it is versus a policy that says, "We know you like hybrid workspace."
Karima Bryant 14:31
What was coming up for me as you were talking, Sarah, was the other word we use in "I,D,& E" is equity. And equity is about eliminating barriers that prevent the fair access, opportunity and advancement and full participation of individual employees. And when I think about that full participation and for you to be successful and me to be successful, that looks very different for each of us. So, how do we have and understand from our employees? What will it take for us to get your full participation and for you to be fully successful? So one of the things I do with my team is we have a check in, right? The first, you know, 15 minutes of our call, we just do a check in. "How are you doing? What's going on in your world?" And we have gotten to know each other so well intimately as a team, that that helps us to understand each other and our different ways of working. And I think if we can formalize that so that managers are more willing to learn more about their employees as individuals, they can understand how they can work successful.
Tom Rourke 15:47
You know, when we think about the people that we want to bring together for a group, what are the attributes of that person that are going to be actually the really important things they bring to the room? And it isn't just about their skill. So, less about accommodating a difference, more about giving space for that difference to have an impact, if I could put it that way.
Karima Bryant 16:08
You know, some things I do really, really well, not because of my job, but it's because I have four kids and I have to organize crazy stuff, but it's a really great skill that you might want to know about.
Sarah Maston 16:20
I had a friend, she was an accountant. She considered herself a pretty standard accountant-type person. But she could make mini origami cranes. Like in a normal origami piece of paper, she would. Basically, that would become 36 small squares or something, and then could turn them into tiny,mini origami cranes. And I was just like, "I've never seen that before." Once you find those interesting things, and even difficult people that you're trying to find, where's that hook? Because we have to learn to work together. And work is such a place where all sorts of different people are kind of forced into the same room and you have to figure out how to work together. And we've all been on teams that work well. And we've all been on teams that don't. You know, it's kind of like if you're bored with what you're doing or you don't feel that click, well go find something else to do. There's so much to do here and you'll find your people. And, you know, raising a hand and saying, "Hey, I've got these qualities and I don't think I mesh here." That's okay. You know, you're not stuck.
Karima Bryant 17:28
The intersectionality, right,? So what you're talking about and what you've been talking about, Sarah, and what we've been talking about here is the intersectionality. And the recognizing that we all have different lived experiences that make us who we are over whatever period of time that is. And the other point that really stood out from you I think is that the essence of this conversation is humanity, right? We are all humans. We all come to this space and come to this world in very different ways. And everything that we've done in our lives makes us who we are. But we are people. We are meant to be treated well and respected and valued for everything that we bring to the table. To me, that's what continues to come up with kind of this theme.
Tom Rourke 18:11
The context of the podcast, obviously, is that we talked about The Progress Report. So we obviously are focused on progress. And I think what I've heard from the discussion is we've had a degree of progress and a whole series of dimensions throughout the course of the chapters of your career, Sarah, and yours, Karima. If you were to just look to the future, what would your thoughts be on things you would like to see progress to create more space for those of us and those of our colleagues who are neurodiverse?
Sarah Maston 18:41
Trust. You have to trust people. And you know what? Sure, maybe sometimes you don't get the reaction that you hoped for. But that's life, right? You know, if you're pitching an idea or you have an idea, but you don't say anything, there's 100% that you're gonna fail. But if you do speak up and pose that idea or say what you want to say, the worst anybody will ever say is no. But if you say nothing, then it's always no. So, you know, for those who may be more like me versus more like Tom or more like Karima, just trust people to be real people. Like just remember even that terrible manager of whatever, blah, blah, blah... whoever that is. That archetype, you know? If there's somebody very difficult in your life, well, maybe it's difficult because it's all these things. Maybe you are covering. Maybe you are worried. Maybe that's making you present not how you think you present in your mind. So you just have to learn to trust that everybody is human. Everybody has friends. Everybody has people in their lives, family, family of choice, and experiences. But if you don't open up about your own experiences, they can't open up about theirs.
Karima Bryant 20:08
We have to open the door and opening the door looks very different in very different ways in different organizations. But if we open the door to bring in more people who are neurodiverse into our organizations, and we create a space where they can be successful and we open the door for them to share their stories, I think that is so, I mean, from what I understand, there is still one of the highest unemployment rates in people who are neurodiverse, right? So we're not doing a good job of bringing them into our organizations and giving them a space to thrive and be successful. And I think if we can do more of that, we can create more stories and more opportunities for people to share stories. So more people who are in this population see themselves represented. And we're also then benefiting from all of the uniqueness and diverse ways of thinking that they bring. That opening the door and being willing to enable a group of people who can bring so many different ways of thinking and innovation and creativity, I think, is what we need to do better and more of.
Sarah Maston 21:19
Both our companies, we create experiences and solutions for customers, right? At the end of the day, that's how it works. I work at a tools company, and Kyndryl takes those tools and make solutions. And then customers use those solutions to go do whatever they're going to do. And out in the world, nobody looks like this cookie-cutter or has that experience. And if you're bringing more people in to design or create these solutions that are more diverse, and you're being more inclusive of how everybody experiences, whether it's a software program, or a solution, or a retail solution, whatever it is. Because out in the world, bringing people in at the beginning to say, "Hey, you know what, there's a million people that are like that person. They don't look like me, you know. They look like you. And our customers look like both of us. And by the way, they look like this guy over here, you know, and her." And if we can bring those folks all in, like everybody comes in to design or contribute in whichever way, that means that we'll scale. I worked very closely with someone who is blind and I learned so much from her. And I started to approach things differently just because I knew her and sat next to her at work. Or my deaf colleague, you know, just because I know that we have to have cameras on when you have deaf colleagues and they have interpreters, you have to have the cameras on. They need to see you. But when I'm in a hearing meeting, all the cameras are off. And because I work with a group of deaf full-time employees at Microsoft on things, I noticed now that, "Wow, this would never happen when I'm over with these friends over here." And that's how we all start to go forward, right? That's progress.
Tom Rourke 23:09
As you've seen for today's discussion, it's important to strike a balance between making space for people to feel safe and confident and bringing their full selves to the workplace, and not pressuring them to join any particular group or club based on labels which might apply to them. And I was very much struck by Sarah's emphasis on the fundamental importance of establishing trust. Establishing that trust as we open new doors for a more diverse population requires authenticity and perhaps more shared vulnerability from all of us as leaders. I hope you've enjoyed this episode of The Progress Report. And if you did, please do like, share, subscribe. Thank you for listening.